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Sexual harassment isn’t a joke!

July 28th 2008 03:46
There’s an article that got my blood boiling this morning, all about sexual harassment and how many people don’t see it as a big deal.

sexual harrassment

There is a certain B-grade actor in the Philippines, known as a Wild Child, because of his abusive and aggressive behaviour when drunk, some of which were captured on TV as an ex-housemate in the Philippine version of Celebrity Big Brother. He violated the rule Big Brother enforced on him (no drinking because of his reputation), and, when drunk, touched, attempted to kiss and grope certain female houseguests. He was finally booted when he violated the rule a second time.


Some weeks ago, a friend of his, a daughter of a celebrity couple, invited him along with some friends to a bar where he proceeded to drink and asked her for a one-night stand. His attempt at apologising was to ask for a hug then groped her breasts. As a result, the girl filed a sexual harassment case against him to teach him a lesson.

Reading the comments following the article, I was surprised and disgusted to see that almost half of the people felt it was her fault – bullshit like she knew what he’d be like drunk and shouldn’t have invited him, thus she provoked him; that he was drunk and obviously had no control over his actions so his groping was unintentional. But what pissed me off the most was the disbelief that someone like this guy would attempt to flirt with a girl who wasn’t ‘sexy or pretty’ while there was another flip comment, ‘at least it wasn’t rape’.


What the fuck?

Can a girl not bring attention to feeling violated without the public delving into what she looks like, how she dresses, her lifestyle and sexual orientation, etc? For people to say that she should’ve seen it coming with the bastard’s reputation is akin to a woman being told ‘What do you expect when you dress like that?’

This brings me back to when I first started at my current work and how much I had to fight for sexual harassment to be taken seriously. As an Operations manager in a predominantly male working environment, I was surprised to find my butt tapped twice, was asked to enter a roomful of men so they could have a contest to see which one could correctly guess my cup size and been told that jeans with pockets definitely made my ass look better.

I may have made my displeasure at such treatment known to the point that I am no longer sexually harassed but it came with consequences. I’m not invited to many rowdy lunches (granted, they’re at Hooters) and no one jokes around with me because I apparently don’t have a sense of humour.

I then had to watch them focus their unwelcome attentions on new female colleagues. I remember a girl who fell for that lame joke ‘I bet you $1 I can make your breasts jiggle without touching them’ only for her breasts to be groped and a $1 given to her. Another girl, at a staff party in a bowling alley, was invited to play with a male colleague’s balls any time and another almost got fired because she turned down a manager’s date invitation.

But what grated on me the most was my boss’ attitude toward it all. When I heard these things happening, I told him something had to be done because these women were feeling increasingly uncomfortable about working in such an environment. While he agreed that a memo should go out to all and action would be taken against those who harassed, I wasn’t happy when I heard another colleague tell me that my own boss had dubbed me a troublemaker for making a big deal out of the situations.

And before anyone can accuse me of just accusing the men of such disrespect, I should point out that I had to defend a male colleague’s integrity when a group of girls tittered and asked him to turn around so they could see his butt.

Seriously, what do we need to do to prove that sexual harassment is a serious case? Having our private parts groped, joked about and being made to feel like succulent pieces of meat when we go into a boardroom for a work-related matter make us feel violated and frustrated. Then to be thrown into our faces that ‘it’s not a big deal’ and to be hinted at that we should just go along with it and that we’re just complete whingers when we complain is utter bullshit.

I spoke to a group of people at work and a couple confessed that they had been victims of sexual harassment but didn’t feel secure enough to stand up to it because of the negative reaction to those who had complained against it (like yours truly). No matter how much I tried to incite them that it’s their right to feel safe at work and not put up with the harassment, they’re too scared. So when someone taps their ass, they pretend to laugh. When someone makes a comment on how ‘delicious’ they look that day, they remain tight-lipped. When someone grabs their arms from behind so their tits are thrust forward for other male workers to ogle at, they go along with it. And it saddens me.

I’ve vowed to take up their cause and keep an eagle eye on anyone behaving inappropriately. If my own boss has dubbed me a troublemaker, I may as well cause trouble for a good reason. But it’s extremely frustrating to feel that I seem to be the only one fighting for it and, yes, a little scared that I could be jeopardising my job and my career.

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Comment by Ahmed

July 28th 2008 04:37
Well it was technically her fault, bringing along some dude who is known to behave the way he does especially when drunk.

Not that it excuses hisbehaviour, but if you invite Jason to your teenage daughters party you're going to be getting a lot of 'what the fuck was she thinking?' from people who will read the inevitable news story about how everyone was brutally murdered at that party.

Same goes for all your experiences, if you don't stand up for your rights no one is going to, it's not that the woman is at fault so much so her unwillingness to act is the problem. You can't change the way people act around you but you can at least defend your dignity.

Comment by Michaelie

July 28th 2008 04:39
Aimz - fantastic post. And I empathise with every point. I cannot believe that people still look to a woman for culpability when she is raped or sexually harassed, like something she has done has brought it on, as if she is a car which has been broken into because it looked like it could provide a flash joyride.

It makes me feel sick.

And as for harrassment in the workplace - I have been in your position exactly. These things that are seen as 'insignificant/not hurting anyone/a bit of fun' like a slap on the arse, etc, can not only make the victim feel uncomfortable or violated personally, but belittled, disrespected and segregated professionally based on their gender/appearance/etc.

The absolute worst part of this, as you say, is that when a woman attempts to do something about it, she is treated to the opposite reaction, with the very same outcome. I have had men sidle around me with their hands in the air 'oh I don't want to accidentally touch you and have you throw a tantrum over it', 'you're no fun at all, can't even handle people being friendly', etc, etc, etc. In the end, you are still discriminated against, still denigrated, still insulted and not taken seriously. That's the part that really gets me.

Good work, Aimz.

Mich

Comment by Michaelie

July 28th 2008 04:45
Ahmed,

Well it was technically her fault

her unwillingness to act is the problem

but you can at least defend your dignity

You have got to be kidding me.

Comment by Ahmed

July 28th 2008 05:00
The work place is not necessarily somewhere you can feel 'relaxed' in. the issue is you're working with competitive men who are probably insecure that a woman might be promoted ahead of them.

If you don't stand up for your rights then who will? There are laws in place for protecting you, so the next logical step is to use them. If you don't then expect to be taken advantage of.

Don't take shit from nobody and all that.


and don't quote me out of context like that.

Comment by Aimzster

July 28th 2008 05:04
Hi Ahmed,
I appreciate you posting but I totally disagree with you on this one. Blaming the girl for inviting the guy to the bar is exempting the guy from any responsibility. Yes, a person can scratch their head and say 'what was she thinking?' We can speculate why she invited him along but the fact of the matter is and the whole issue is, she didn't invite him to grope her breasts. I can turn around say 'well this guy knows what he's like when drunk. Why doesn't he prevent himself from doing so? Go to rehab or something?" And comparing this guy to Jason is a bit unfair. Jason has psychological issues. This guy, well, he just overindulges. But you're right about not being able to change the way people react around you and it's frustrating. As someone said, if they don't want to help themselves, how can you help them? But I'll at least try.

Michaelie, glad to hear I'm not alone in this. I just feel like my hands are tied and I really hate that feeling, especially when I know the problem is right there. I can't help thinking that if all the women at my work take up the cause, sexual harrassment won't be taken lightly by my boss.

Comment by Ahmed

July 28th 2008 05:13
Blaming the girl for inviting the guy to the bar is exempting the guy from any responsibility

Not that it excuses hisbehaviour,

Do me a favour, read what I write before implying I'm excusing him from sexual harrasment.

Comment by Aimzster

July 28th 2008 05:26
Sorry Ahmed, but saying that it's technically the girl's fault then saying 'not that it excuses his behaviour' then making an example of Jason is akin to someone saying 'With all due respect' then telling them off.

As for my current working environment, I don't think I'm dealing with insecure men who are afraid women will be promoted ahead of them. These men are actually at the head of the company and sadly, I honestly believe they think what they're doing isn't degrading women which makes me wonder exactly how people should be educated so they know the fine line. But that's another topic altogether.

Comment by Michaelie

July 28th 2008 05:29
Ahmed, your words in context are directly above my comment, I was merely highlighting the parts that struck me as wrong.

I am all for competition in the workplace, but to compete with someone in the workplace based on derogatory remarks/actions due to gender is not on. As you say, that's why there are laws against it. You can't say that people can do what they want to another person freely until the victim invokes the law. If I stabbed someone in the eye in order to take the out of the running for a promotion, that would be wrong, whether that person 'dobbed me in' or not.

Sexual harrassment is serious. You are making it sound like a feasibile tactic to use to get ahead - as if it's playing hardball and people can either play hardball back or get squashed by the opposition. This view is precisely the problem, and it's omnipresent. When a woman calls 'foul', suddenly she is seen as 'not able to hack it with the big boys', not able to cope with 'the game'. It's a lose-lose situation for women who are harrassed.

Aimz, yeah there's a long way to go, and it saddens me that there is still such a fight to have this taken seriously even though it's against the law, as with rape and sexual abuse, as well as other forms of discrimination.

Comment by Ahmed

July 28th 2008 05:35
laws are only as good as people who are willing to use them, I'm no tsaying people can do what they want so long as no one enforces their rights but some people will do whatever they want until someone does.

And this is why I said you shouldn't quote me out of context:

You are making it sound like a feasibile tactic to use to get ahead

you can tell me what you want about my original comment stil being there, but you can still quote me out of context and reply to me in any which way you want.

When a woman calls 'foul', suddenly she is seen as 'not able to hack it with the big boys', not able to cope with 'the game'. It's a lose-lose situation for women who are harrassed.

Well that's too bad then isn't it? What should women do? Sob about how bad all the men are or do something about it? Don't expect peoples attitudes towards you to change unless you do something about it.

You're trying to say that it's all over, there is nothing women can do unless certain people can magically change their opinion. You can cry foul all you want, you're not going to change anything unless you act.

Comment by Michaelie

July 28th 2008 05:51
Well that's too bad then isn't it? What should women do? Sob about how bad all the men are or do something about it?

Your phrasing is offensive, and proves my point.

Women ARE doing something about it, that's what we are saying, and they are receiving the same backlash. By 'crying foul' I meant in the terms of my analogy, calling a halt to the harrassment and standing up for their rights - which as I pointed out several times, often makes things even harder for the victim, as they are then disriminated against in a different way.

The laws are already in place, it shouldn't be such a battle to have them adhered to in the first place in a professional envirnment, and in the second place, to even have them applied. It makes a mockery of the legislation.

I'm no tsaying people can do what they want so long as no one enforces their rights but some people will do whatever they want until someone does.

Unfortunately, with regard to sexual discrimination, this happens far more than with other laws, because the harrassment is so often glossed over even when a complaint is made, and the victim is further villified for 'making a fuss' over something that is too often not taken seriously. That is the whole point.

Comment by Ahmed

July 28th 2008 06:01
Your phrasing is offensive, and proves my point.

If your point is I care very little about people who are afraid to stand up for themselves in a free country where their rights are assured to them then bingo.

Comment by Michaelie

July 28th 2008 06:07
My point is... there is no point debating it with you.

Comment by Ahmed

July 28th 2008 06:13
My point is... there is no point debating it with you.

Well if you could give me a proper position you have, instead of 'well there are bad people who harrass women' and then go on to make it sound like there is nothing women can do because it's apparently a lose-lose situation there would be a debate.

But it seems to me all you're looking for is sympathy for people who are unwilling to stand up for themselves.

Comment by Michaelie

July 28th 2008 06:37
1. I have given you my position, very clearly, but you seem to have ignored half of what I have said in order to have an argument.

2. I was trying to have a discussion of the problems women face when they try to do something about this, because they try, in my experience they try very hard and get nowhere. As I have said, they DO stand up for themselves, they DO report it, and are subsequently discriminated against further. I don't think that is acceptable.

3. What exactly, since this is such a simple issue with such a simple answer, would you suggest someone do, who is being sexually harrassed?

4. And I would like you're opinion - if a woman is raped and too traumatised to report it, is she then part of the problem for continuing incidence of rape? And if she does report it, suffers through internal examination, faces her abuser in a court, is it fair then that she is also made to feel by anyone, any of the things that have been part of the attitudes of our society, which have led to so many women suffering in silence? Blame, shame, made to feel like she brought it upon herself, like she was disbelieved, or that she should have dressed differently, said no sooner, screamed louder? The emphasis is traditionally placed on the wrong party, and this way of thinking is still pervasive and still has an impact on how seriously and in what way any form of harrassment or violence agaisnt a woman is perceived, as well as how she is perceived when she tries to fight this and stand up for her rights.

If I took a hammer to someone's mobile phone, they wouldn't have to defend their rights half as much as a woman who reports harrassment has to.

Comment by Ahmed

July 28th 2008 06:54
I have given you my position, very clearly, but you seem to have ignored half of what I have said in order to have an argument.

Your basic premise has been that women are sexually harrassed all the time and if they do something about it then they suffer therefore it's a lose-lose situation.

That is not a position, that is a statement, a position is when you give a statement on a situation and explain what you think of it, in this context you'd want to explain why you you think it and what you think should be done to end it.

You will also have to prove your statement is accurate, another thing you've failed to do.

I was trying to have a discussion of the problems women face when they try to do something about this, because they try, in my experience they try very hard and get nowhere. As I have said, they DO stand up for themselves, they DO report it, and are subsequently discriminated against further. I don't think that is acceptable.

Neither do I think it's acceptable but you never did say that, what you did was give a hypothetical scenario, if a woman reports it such and such happens to her. Even if what you say is true does not mean she should not defend herself, it all is a part of that.

I'd personally start with telling off the peopl ebehaving like that, if they persist then legal action is not only appropriate but completely 'winnable'.

What exactly, since this is such a simple issue with such a simple answer, would you suggest someone do, who is being sexually harrassed?

I never said it's a simple issue with a simple answer, you really do enjoy putting words in my mouth don't you? I have to keep repeating how I did not say this and not say that. *sigh* Try to think without emotion and stop double guessing that I approve of women being sexually hararsed.

Like I said, I have very little respect for someone who does nto stand up for his/her rights, it's as simple as that. I'm not discussing the details here of what constitutes sexual harrasment and what happens when you respond or don't. I'm simply saying if you don't stand up for your rights then don't start complaining about it.

And I would like you're opinion - if a woman is raped and too traumatised to report it, is she then part of the problem for continuing incidence of rape? And if she does report it, suffers through internal examination, faces her abuser in a court, is it fair then that she is also made to feel by anyone, any of the things that have been part of the attitudes of our society, which have led to so many women suffering in silence?

I love your emotionally dirven hypothetical arguments, let me give you another one:

Some attention whore claims some random dude raped her, and he goes through hell and back, loses his marriage, his kids, is labelled a sex offender, then months later it is proven that the woman lied. What happens then? You might be able to (or not even able to) bring about some random isolated extreme incidence where someone was raped and had to suffer through court proceedings, but I can just as well bring you a case where a man suffered through practically the same thing.

Is it fair for him to suffer through the indignity? More to the point, should you be getting emotional on the matter?

Women will not suffer through abuse in this country if they were raped, they are given world class support and world class care, don't go off on tangents with hypothetical scenarios. If you're trying to incite an emotional response in me then you're wasting your time, all you're doing is showing that your argument is based on emotion rather than reality.

If you're just going to counter with more emotion filled rhetoric don't bother, I don't find emotions to be a good way of thinking objectively about things.

Comment by Ahmed

July 28th 2008 06:54
I have given you my position, very clearly, but you seem to have ignored half of what I have said in order to have an argument.

Your basic premise has been that women are sexually harrassed all the time and if they do something about it then they suffer therefore it's a lose-lose situation.

That is not a position, that is a statement, a position is when you give a statement on a situation and explain what you think of it, in this context you'd want to explain why you you think it and what you think should be done to end it.

You will also have to prove your statement is accurate, another thing you've failed to do.

I was trying to have a discussion of the problems women face when they try to do something about this, because they try, in my experience they try very hard and get nowhere. As I have said, they DO stand up for themselves, they DO report it, and are subsequently discriminated against further. I don't think that is acceptable.

Neither do I think it's acceptable but you never did say that, what you did was give a hypothetical scenario, if a woman reports it such and such happens to her. Even if what you say is true does not mean she should not defend herself, it all is a part of that.

I'd personally start with telling off the peopl ebehaving like that, if they persist then legal action is not only appropriate but completely 'winnable'.

What exactly, since this is such a simple issue with such a simple answer, would you suggest someone do, who is being sexually harrassed?

I never said it's a simple issue with a simple answer, you really do enjoy putting words in my mouth don't you? I have to keep repeating how I did not say this and not say that. *sigh* Try to think without emotion and stop double guessing that I approve of women being sexually hararsed.

Like I said, I have very little respect for someone who does nto stand up for his/her rights, it's as simple as that. I'm not discussing the details here of what constitutes sexual harrasment and what happens when you respond or don't. I'm simply saying if you don't stand up for your rights then don't start complaining about it.

And I would like you're opinion - if a woman is raped and too traumatised to report it, is she then part of the problem for continuing incidence of rape? And if she does report it, suffers through internal examination, faces her abuser in a court, is it fair then that she is also made to feel by anyone, any of the things that have been part of the attitudes of our society, which have led to so many women suffering in silence?

I love your emotionally dirven hypothetical arguments, let me give you another one:

Some attention whore claims some random dude raped her, and he goes through hell and back, loses his marriage, his kids, is labelled a sex offender, then months later it is proven that the woman lied. What happens then? You might be able to (or not even able to) bring about some random isolated extreme incidence where someone was raped and had to suffer through court proceedings, but I can just as well bring you a case where a man suffered through practically the same thing.

Is it fair for him to suffer through the indignity? More to the point, should you be getting emotional on the matter?

Women will not suffer through abuse in this country if they were raped, they are given world class support and world class care, don't go off on tangents with hypothetical scenarios. If you're trying to incite an emotional response in me then you're wasting your time, all you're doing is showing that your argument is based on emotion rather than reality.

If you're just going to counter with more emotion filled rhetoric don't bother, I don't find emotions to be a good way of thinking objectively about things.

Comment by Michaelie

July 28th 2008 07:14
You have, as usual with these kinds of social issues, completely missed the point.

Until next time, Ahmed.

Comment by Ahmed

July 28th 2008 07:19
You have, as usual with these kinds of social issues, completely missed the point.

As usualy no one has told me the point, these social issues tend to revolve around the basic premise of 'xxx is such and such, you must feel outraged!'

There is no point to that. I guess the fact I don't let my emotions sway me in these matters makes me miss this 'point' but that's like missing out on the evening soap opera: no regrets.

Comment by Aimzster

July 28th 2008 09:04
I know where you’re coming from, Ahmed, that everyone should know their rights and know to stand up for them. Ideally, that’s how it should work. In many cases in our society, it doesn’t. As Michaelie pointed out and as I have experienced myself, you often get a negative feedback and you do suffer some consequences for shedding light on something that many people prefer to sweep under the rug. And as much as it pains me to see people in hiding and as much as it frustrates me having to try to tell them there is nothing to fear and that the law will be on their side, they can’t help what they feel because they’re too scared to go against the system as they fear there’s a lot at stake. Telling a woman to stand up for her rights is easier said than done, I’ve just discovered. I was of the same mind as you then I spoke further to these women and I realised their fear stems from having no belief that the system and law would work to their advantage. Most of the women who are victims of sexual harassment at my work are scared to do anything about the sexual harassment because of the negative reaction they KNOW they’ll get. I mean, look what happened to me. I was practically ostracised and I’m in a managerial position and known for being assertive. They’re thinking ‘if she’s being treated like that, what chances do I have?’ In this case, I put all the blame on the boss. Dubbing me a troublemaker and letting other workers hear of it completely contradicts the memo sent out about sexual harassment and sends a signal out to other employees that sexual harassment is fine – ‘just don’t do it in front of the troublemaker’. As a boss of a company, he should be setting an example for all his employees to go by. If the boss doesn’t support action against sexual harassment, how will these women muster up enough confidence to defend their dignity?

Comment by Ahmed

July 28th 2008 09:12
As Michaelie pointed out and as I have experienced myself

Michaelie did not point anything out, she just made up a bunch of stories and ran with it as if they were fact.

Your experiences suggest women don't stand up for their rights because they're too afraid.

In the business world it's simple, if you're not a predator you're prey, if women can't stand up for their own rights then they're literally going to be pulled down.

You don't get respect by being timid, you have to assert yourself, you have to get up and say 'I'm a human being, I deserve to be treated with respect' and if you are somehow isolated for it well what are you so sad about? Being isolated from a pack of filthy animals?

Comment by Michaelie

July 28th 2008 09:29
Don't bother, Aimz.

You and I both know the realities of being a professional managerial woman trying to combat this. I have seen it many times professionally, in recent times with collegues, previously as a union representative and as a counsellor, as well as having experienced it myself within and outside of the workforce.

It's not easy, and it's not simple, but we keep standing up despite the repercussions because we have to, and much more often than we would ever wish. Hopefully one day, all kinds of harrassment and discrimination, as well as rape and violence against women will be taken seriously, free of the taboo and social stigma which still haunt these acts and their victims.

Comment by Ahmed

July 28th 2008 09:35
It's not easy, and it's not simple, but we keep standing up despite the repercussions because we have to,

Oh so you do, and what of all the 'it's a lose lose situation, nothing ever comes of it?' you've been saying up to this point?

Hopefully one day, all kinds of harrassment and discrimination, as well as rape and violence against women will be taken seriously, free of the taboo and social stigma which still haunt these acts and their victims.

Yes, because a woman who is raped is totally made fun of... like you saw on the news the other day... like... yeah.

*sigh* I wonder how you can believe this sort of indecisiveness, it's like a poorly written movie.

Comment by Michaelie

July 28th 2008 09:48
Anyone who read my comments properly can see your assertions are ridiculous, Ahmed. That's enough now.

Comment by Ahmed

July 28th 2008 10:09
Anyone who read my comments properly can see your assertions are ridiculous, Ahmed. That's enough now.

I'm sorry but you're calling my assertions ridiculous and then telling me enough? Let's look at what you said, and unlike what you did I'm going to quote you in full context:

When a woman calls 'foul', suddenly she is seen as 'not able to hack it with the big boys', not able to cope with 'the game'. It's a lose-lose situation for women who are harrassed.

So it's lose lose, I'll give you that you did contradict yourself with this long before that last statement:

Women ARE doing something about it, that's what we are saying, and they are receiving the same backlash. By 'crying foul' I meant in the terms of my analogy, calling a halt to the harrassment and standing up for their rights - which as I pointed out several times, often makes things even harder for the victim, as they are then disriminated against in a different way.

So essentially women concede they must be harrassed in some way shape or form and they don't stand up for themselves.

It's not easy, and it's not simple, but we keep standing up despite the repercussions because we have to, and much more often than we would ever wish. Hopefully one day, all kinds of harrassment and discrimination, as well as rape and violence against women will be taken seriously, free of the taboo and social stigma which still haunt these acts and their victims.

No matter what they do because there will always be reprecussions.

You're not being all that consistant here, on the one hand you're saying women are standing up for their rights on the other hand you're saying they are being put down for doing so. In that case they're not standing up for their rights, by your very words they do one thing but fail to follow through with it. When someone says something to th eeffect of 'gee you're no fun' in direct regards to the fact you refuse to whore out your body and you don't respond then you're not standing up for your rights, you're not asserting the simple fact that you're a human being who deserves to be treated with respect.

Taboos are irrelevent, this isn't about taboos, this is about you and other people in a competitive environment, it's about you for whatever reason not standing up for your own rights.


And again, for rape, I find it deeply disturbing and somewhat hilarious that you think rape victims are not treated with respect. it's like you went to some random womens meating and some random dude-ette blabbered on about how no one cares if a woman was raped and you just took it and ran with it. Rape, of all crimes, is treated with far more seriousness than anything else, women can accuse a man of being raped and without any evidence, without any trial that man will be arrested, fingerprinted and put in jail until a court hearing which may or may not grant him bail.

Comment by Aimzster

July 29th 2008 03:14
Yes, we all like to believe the world is simple, that things are black & white but it’s not, is it? I know women should stand up for their own rights but I also understand the fear that prevents them from doing so. Are you telling me that the whole problem with the sexual harassment in at my work is entirely the fault of these women who say nothing? I concede that they’re not helping themselves by keeping it quiet but you have to admit that the blame should also be laid upon my boss for not setting an example and in actual fact sending out the wrong signals about sexual harassment.

I don’t regret standing up against sexual harassment and I will do it again if I ever find myself in a similar situation in a different working environment. But I can’t help feeling sad that I am made to feel isolated by a bunch of morons who don’t think they’re doing anything wrong. You ask why I should feel sad about being isolated from a pack of filthy animals? Because it affects my work. It affects any chances of a promotion. It affects the relationship in my team. An obvious answer would be to quit and look for a job elsewhere where sexual harassment isn’t a norm. But my goal now is to change people’s attitudes – not just those who are afraid to stand up, but also those who honestly think sexual harassment is a joke.

Comment by Ahmed

July 29th 2008 04:27
I never said it was entirely their fault, all I said was if they dont stand up for themselves then they will be hurt.


Comment by Cibbuano

August 13th 2008 00:36
I think the point that Ahmed is trying to make is that women should stand up for their rights.

I agree with that - women should stand up for their rights, as should everyone.

The point that Aimzster and Michaelie are making is that, unfortunately, sometimes the society is built to not give a voice to women. If the law doesn't protect a person's right to speak, then it is, in fact, a lose-lose situation.

Sadly, I saw this first-hand when I lived in China. The traditional view of domestic relations is that it's ok to hit a woman, to show her 'place'.

Obviously, I thought this was outrageous and I yelled at a guy to stop hitting his wife on the street. He went red, stopped hitting her and I was debating running up the hill to knock him out. My friend dragged me away, but not before I heard 'See what you did? You made me look bad in front of the foreigner'.

Naturally, I asked some Chinese women what they could do in a situation like this. They seemed resigned to the fact that they could do nothing. You really can't go to the police - that'll be a disaster and a half.

Aimzster, these stories, are they happening in Australia or the Philipines?

I'd like to think that this wouldn't happen in Australia, but I might be blinded by blind optimism.


Comment by D. Armenta

October 22nd 2008 16:06
Hi Aimzster!

First, I apologise for neglecting one of my favorite writers for awhile--between gigs and a desperate (maybe futile) attempt to educate American voters lately, I've been remiss. All apologies.

Now, as for this post; I know I'm coming in late, but I'd like to share what I've learned from my own experiences as a lifelong participant in many male-dominated areas ( air traffic control supervisor in the Navy, firefighter, bartender, drummer, scuba instructor, etc.)

We're talking 30 years of frustration, tears, hurt feelings, uncontrollable fury on my part, and being ostracized, insulted and ignored; that's a lot of learning!

1) Level the playing field.You must stop thinking of yourself as a "female" supervisor/boss/whatever. You are a supervisor and that's it. Take the "female" out of the definition because that will work against you, not only in your own view of yourself but also in others' views of you.

2) Establish yourself as a competent, knowledgeable boss. Running to the law/the next level above you is the worst thing you can do in a sexual harassment situation, especially if you hold a supervisory position. This is the equivalent of "tattling" and will lead to your peers ostracizing you (as you and Michaelie have experienced).

3) Harassment is a typical pack mannerism used to gauge your reaction-- how much crap you'll take, whether or not you're a team player or a whiner, whether you belong in the alpha (boss) position or not. It's a test, and how you react will determine how well you'll do as a boss.

So how do you handle sexual harassment without being victimized?

Here's what works for me:

Gropes, pinches, taps--any physical touching in a sexual matter I handle myself.

A swift elbow in the gut, a kick to the shins, digging my nails into a wandering hand..I accompany this with a jump and a little yell. "Wah, you scared the hell out of me! Are you okay? Sorry, man--gut reaction."

What I'm doing is using the same justification for striking out as the man uses for groping ("You shouldn't dress like that, I can't help myself" also applies to "You shouldn't grab me like that, I can't help myself")

-Note that I'm not going for extremes here--just a quick, slightly painful pinch or elbow without
noticeable verbal aggression. You caught me by surprise and I reacted. Sorry! You alright?

This throws the ball back into the man's court instead of turning all eyes to you to see how you'll react.

Now, in 15 years of using this technique I've never had a man report me for physical aggression because he knows damned well he started it.

I also taught the few women serving under me the same technique, and it works. In our experience.

As far as sexual remarks, or that moronic game of calling you into a room to figure out your cup size--a sense of humor is your best defense right now.

The clever comeback, the joke at the offender's expense--these work wonders. Small dick/masculinity jokes are the most effective, as long as you are delivering them with a smile and a laugh. Remarks about your physical appearance can usually be turned around to the offender.

For example: "You have the nicest tits here" can be turned around to "I don't know about that, Bob-your tits are way bigger than mine."

Sometimes the situation calls for the rueful comeback: "Girl, you are one hot piece of ass" can be parried with "Gee, Bob--I wish I could say the same about you." Grin-pat Bob's shoulder-make quick exit.

I was in a similar situation where I was called in to a roomful of guys who announced they were taking bets as to whether I was wearing a thong or a teddy under my uniform. I flashed a big grin, shook my head and said "You know, that's quite a coincidence, Bob. We were just out there taking the same bets about you. I'm betting on a teddy, but I'm in the minority"--then the fast exit as everyone laughed at Bob. Fast exits after dropping the bomb are key.

The goal here is to establish that you can handle yourself and that you belong because you are qualified to do the job. A male-dominated workplace is rough-and-tumble, but they do have their own set of rules: give as good as you get, know your stuff cold when it comes down to your job, and handle challenges to your authority with humor and aplomb.The workplace is no place for emotions. That may be harsh, but it's reality.

Okay, I've run on way too long..but I hope that helps.

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