Posts about Orble
December 9th 2006 01:34
Recently there have been quite a few posts which have been about Orble. These obviously end up being quite popular but I'm not sure that it's what readers who come to Orble really want to read about or find interesting.
I would propose that all posts which have something to do with Orble are placed on the writer's forum which was what it was created for in the first place. Posts from the writer's forum are displayed prominently when a member is logged in so they will get just as much exposure to other Orble members but not to regular readers.
A couple other questions:
Swearing in the post title -- should it be allowed? Given the broad range of people who read Orble posts I think we should probably keep swearing out of the post titles. It's a bit of a cheap way to attract attention anyway.
Insulting other writers -- I'm all for constructive discussion but insulting other people is taking it a bit too far.
As the community grows we are unfortunately going to need a few rules.
Thoughts?
Jon.
I would propose that all posts which have something to do with Orble are placed on the writer's forum which was what it was created for in the first place. Posts from the writer's forum are displayed prominently when a member is logged in so they will get just as much exposure to other Orble members but not to regular readers.
A couple other questions:
Swearing in the post title -- should it be allowed? Given the broad range of people who read Orble posts I think we should probably keep swearing out of the post titles. It's a bit of a cheap way to attract attention anyway.
Insulting other writers -- I'm all for constructive discussion but insulting other people is taking it a bit too far.
As the community grows we are unfortunately going to need a few rules.
Thoughts?
Jon.
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Comment by Adele
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Comment by katyzzz
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I agree with what you're saying but I think a few standards should be set, as well, did we really need to be exposed to "that post"
I'll leave it to your imagination which one.
That one left nothing to the imagination and was almost a reverse porn. I know I'm very straight which is a pain in the neck to some people but I think we are prescribing to lesser standards of behaviour than are permitted on TV and the popular press.
Surely, Orble is not open slather for the types of material and exposure which can't be used elsewhere.
It's quite a problem I know, and one will hear the censorship cry as an excuse to excuse everything but surely writers should aspire to being good writers, not sensationalists.
Just some thoughts, I don't really expect you to answer all of these concerns, just to give them some thought as to what can reasonably be expected of people.
katyzzz
Comment by Brenton
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Comment by Adrian
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Re insulting -- I sort of agree, sort of don't. I'm actually about to write a series of posts on the topic.
On the one hand, I think most states have insulting language legislation, and that the justifications are fair enough. The traditional rationale has been something to do with preserving public order, while modern rationales are often along the lines, "Why is psychological distress any different from physical distress -- if you can control the latter, why should you not be able to control the former?".
On the other hand, from a free speech point of view, compare, for instance, the idea of parliamentary privilege -- it's thought to be desirable to let MPs say anything whatsoever. Similarly, Kirby J in a recent High Court case on freedom of political language (Coleman v Power) claims that insulting language has always been part and parcel of the struggle of ideas. Should one ban such things as the Mohammad cartoons? Isn't ridicule a legitimate weapon?
So... my position at the moment is that some sort of "no insulting" Orble rule might be desirable, but I think one should be very cautious about enforcing it.
Consider questions such as the following -- What counts as insulting and what doesn't? (People can be offended by all sorts of things, and intention is a hard thing to gauge.) When is an emotional response appropriate or justified (Voices was furious at me for raising the topics of spanking and age of consent)? When is insult a legitimate defence? And what is the difference between fair allegation/constructive criticism and insult (eg: even if you say that someone is "greedy" or "stupid"... well, what if they are? should people be penalized for calling things as they see them? Did Homer or Voices or anyone else really step out of line?).
Re swearing in titles, the first comment to make is to ask how often you've actually seen this. (For instance, Homer's recent post used the word "masturbation" -- it didn't "swear" as such.) Frankly, I think it's very rare, at least among the popular posts -- so this might count against wanting to impose some sort of heavy-handed rule against it.
But what exactly is wrong with swearing anyway -- from a moral point of view? I tend to take the view that if something is not immoral, then it should be permitted.
I also think that swearing is quite important -- for all sorts of reasons. For instance:
-- When you use the vernacular, you choose that level of formality of langauge quite intentionally and to create a specific effect.
-- When feminists use the word "cunt", they want to break down the shock value of the word and to force a change in people's attitudes.
-- And to defend my own usage -- when I wrote the post "Should fucking in public be legalized?", I didn't mean "having sex" or "love-making" -- I wanted to use "fucking" to present the thing as a simple biological act, to be quite brutal about what it was. Marcus Aurelius somewhere writes, in advice designed to unattach people from trivial things, "When you see food on the table, think of it as dead objects. When you experience sexual intercourse, think of it as nothing more than the attrition of an entrail and the convulsive explosion of mucus."
Comment by Luke
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what he said.
Comment by Lilla
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I agree with your ideas and I don't think intelligent people need to swear .. if that is an insult, then I must be politically incorrect and what does Orble becoming too introverted mean anyway...(?)
I hope you get my point... too much censorship is not a good thing but if things degenerate to pornography then I am in the wrong place here...
I am an advocate for encouraging people to better themselves and would hope that the rules would be structured to support such an ethic...not an easy task for you Jon, but there should always be some basic rules when people join... it is harder to implement them now, but most will abide by them if they are within reason ...
A suggestion for the ORBLE Ten...
1. No swearing beyond suggestion. Consider occassional use of asterix for F*!ing, Sh!t, etc is okay if you really have no other word in your brain that you can come up with... which kinda negates you being here in a writers paradise in the first place...if you can't...(?)
2. If you don't like what someone is peddling (ie ecumenically, financially, spiritually, ethically or environmentally) leave a curteous calling comment and move on... If I don't like my neighbour in the real world, I don't go to his house, do I?
3. If you want to leave six comments for every one left on your post that should be your perogative... people will decide what they want and go there accordingly...
4. If you have nothing to say, wait... don't post crap just to get a couple of points...
5. your posts should be in keeping with the theme of your blog, or a new one should be started to cover different topics, perhaps(?)
6. ooh I don't know... someone else have a turn....
Lilla...
Comment by Adrian
Philosophy Blog
Comment by Daressi
What I want to say , who knows what insult other people? In my opinion It's subjective .
About swearing in the titles , that doesn't bothering me . My blog will not have any swears that's for sure , but way of the expression of other authors is another subjective thing and my opinion is everybody have right to choose their way.
Comment by Norm
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I think if you've got something to say about Orble it should be published in the Writers Forum, as suggested.
Norm.
Comment by Ash
Australian Traveller
Flashes of memories
Re: swearing - I always remember one of my High School teachers saying, "those who swear have a limited vocabulary" here, here!
Comment by Bryn
Horrorphile
As for the use of expletives, I use them very rarely, but there is the odd occasion where an expletive carries more weight with what I want to say than a tame alternative.
And as for expletives in the post heading, I agree that they shouldn't be used simply as a traffic lure, but if there is a legitimate context.
One of my earlier posts was about vampirism and I headed it "The Zipless Fuck" which is a reference to Erica Jong, who talked about vampires having sex without taking their pants off; the whole fangs, penetration and bodily fluid thing. I would be disappointed if I was forced to change the heading ....
Comment by Luke
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Sorry, but I find this assertion arrogant and close-minded. I agree with not having swearing in the titles, but I don' see why any word should be off limits when it comes to writing. A 'swear' word is just a word like any other, if you have a problem with them then that's your problem - not everyone else's.
What you believe makes someone a good writer isn't neccessarily the gospel when it comes to defining talent... some of my favourite writers and books ever use indiscriminate language ('Catch 22', 'Slaughterhouse 5', 'Catcher in the Rye'... these books all use the word 'fuck'... are you saying the people who wrote these book shouldn't have been writers?)
Comment by katyzzz
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Unless it's a mistake the new comment system seems to have come into play already, you've virtually made the comment system useless, I shan't be using it much, I like to think my comment is worth more than 2 and those comments given to me is worth more than that, too.
I do hope Eric is happy.
I think your step is retrograde.
It would be nice to think we get something from Orble, we get next to nothing by way of payment and that depends on click voters and I can't see many rushing to find out about blogs once they know about them.
The system does not work . Eric's approach has made it even less viable.
I would like a reply to this comment.
katyzzz
Comment by Lilla
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*sigh*
…what I’m trying to say is that you can be as obscene as you like, because as I also said I wouldn’t go to my neighbour’s house if it smelled and I found it offensive… I’m sure with over 1,000 bloggers to choose from, each will find their own level of ‘interest.’ I was suggesting to Jon to use it as a sub-suggestion perhaps.. for when new Orbler’s join. I don’t think I was suggesting the removal of the right to use it, at all…(?)
I am not a great writer (yet) – far from it, but the day someone in Orble can weave swearing into their work like any of the great works you mention (also amongst my favs, by the way), is the day I agree whole-heartedly to swearing in literature… otherwise, with the exception of perhaps one or two writers... it’s use within Orble so far, has been crass and tasteless, and downright trashy … and in my opinion has bordered on serious psychological disorders like Tourettes Syndrome due to the amounts of mindless direction and explosive frequency… I have seen no cause for applause on any occasion… but, as you have said (and Daressi also), it is subjective…and I understand that you need a platform for feedback to practice your craft for this genre of writing – just like me… so, accepting that it is entirely my problem, I have simply not visited yours (and others') sites as a result… my prerogative… (see previous paragraph).
I think I have commented before, that I think you have talent and I think you would benefit from some formal training … (in my opinion of course)… using swearing in your work effectively is one of the hardest styles of writing… you need a really crisp wit… and some industry savvy in channelling anger...
I will draw your attention back to the fact that Jon was asking for ‘thoughts’ from people as to some blanket guidelines and the fact that we are all supposed to be offering him ideas because his job is not an easy one … I think the final decisions will be up to him once he has had time to weigh up everyone’s view… and I hope more bloggers do give him some constructive suggestions…
...happy writing…
Lilla…
Comment by Lilla
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Comment by katyzzz
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Adele's comment was worth only 2, I tested one of Jessicca'a, and she received my usual 10.
What is going on? Is it changing, or not? and what went wrong on my post?
I'm sorry if I sound abrupt, I find all these things much too time consuming.
katyzzz
Comment by Lilla
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I always leave a comment and then vote as well, sometimes it accepts the extra 10 points on the vote, sometimes it doesn't...?
L.
Comment by Luke
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Comment by The Voices in my Head
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It has already been mentioned here but it bares repeating, if you don't like something or are offended by way of content or preview or picture, must you click on it just to be sure you don't like it and that you are properly offended?
Does this make you feel better about your life, to complain incessantly about your high moral integrity being offended? I would like to think that Orble is for the human and the humane among us. The rest of us would like to get back to writing without CENSORSHIP. Do not think you must save us from ourselves. Worry about your own traffic stats and leave the rest of us to deal with the consequences of our 'horrendous' actions, which offend you so much.
Voices~
Comment by Brenton
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Swearing in titles should be avoided if at all possible. I've been guilty of it once, with my 'Should we Ban Nigger' post, but I hold to defend my use as my entire post was about nigger as a word.
I think that if there is no word to replace it, it's relevant and pretty much unescapable, go for it. Otherwise, exercise restraint.
And occasional Orble posts are OK but it is just stupid at the moment.
Comment by Anonymous
What I mean to say is that I disagree.
Disagree, strongly with what you've just written.
Where is the line?
On forming laws
Law 1.1
If it's at all possible try and refrain from murdering each other, but in the event that you should brutally butcher your wife and dice her into a hundred pieces try not to insult her corpse.
And so on....
Restraint is a red rag to a bull.
Restrain yorself in future please.
Don't be silly?
Anon. gets up and runs around the house screaming and naked with a trombone up his nose.
Silly enough?
Comment by Brenton
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What I mean to say is that I disagree.
Disagree, strongly with what you've just written.
Where is the line?
The line is between attacking me on a personal level, and representing your opinion. If you wish to comment on the views I've expressed, then sure, go ahead. Your writing suck is a pointless comment, it's an attack on the person,. designed to make them feel bad. IT doesn't have a place in the community.
On forming laws
Law 1.1
If it's at all possible try and refrain from murdering each other, but in the event that you should brutally butcher your wife and dice her into a hundred pieces try not to insult her corpse.
And so on....
That doesn't make sense. OR it does, but it's beside the point. Therse are more guidelines than rules so far as I can see, and if we get a general concensus, it paves the way to eliminate negitive trends. If these things continue to cause problems, more long term sollutions can be investigated.
The rest of your post I'll admit, doesn't really make any kind of sense at all to me.
You'd have been more credible if you'd have not been anonamous.
Comment by K.L. Almeroth
Motherhood
Jon,
I'm guilty of putting Orble in a title, and writing a couple of posts now about Orble...but I think if we restrict posts of this nature to our news only, we're not giving readers a chance to choose what they want to read.
I know a lot of my family and friends read my blog, and so know of the Orble family already. They like the Orble posts, cause they get a sense of community. They like the sense of this whole other world going on.
It's just a phase, too. Soon we'll all be over making Orble references!
K.L.
Comment by Anonymous
this is the potential formation of laws, if you'll refer to the topic as you seem so keen on this idea.
Laws are iron-clad.
Yes, laws can control humanity(please refer to the braoder society).
So writing makes more sense when you know the author?
That's sensible.
Your dearest darling,
Anon.
Comment by Brenton
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Please don't talk to me like I'm being conservative about this, I think if you reread my comment you'll see that's not the case.
I've outlined what I support above. I can't see the rules getting too rigid.
And I just like to know who i'm talknig too. Anonomous conversations make me uncomfortable.
Comment by charles
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This isn't just because I'm part of the Orble team but because I am speaking from the stand-point of an Orble community member.
I've read through the comments thus far and can already see the debates over swearing and what constitutes as insulting.
It isn't the best idea to include profanity in the post subject because we have to bear in mind and be wary of the wider audience that comes to Orble - including minors and/or those that may feel uncomfortable with expletives.
I have nothing against swearing in the body of the post and have answered this query from many bloggers in the past and my response has always been "in moderation" but if we could tone it down a bit for the post subject, that would be much better.
As for insulting other writers, that just isn't on. Constructive criticism is fine, but insulting another member/person isn't and most trading of insults usually ends up as a full-blown argument with different people chipping in here and there.
If you have an issue with someone, you can utilise the private message function to sort things out in private and out of the public domain. It's usually much better and easier to sort things out that way (a cooler head would help as well).
All in all, I expect that common sense should prevail in both instances and that we can continue to function harmoniously as the community grows even bigger.
Charles.
Comment by Hope
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I think you are now starting to see the pros and cons of having a blogging network on the rise. But concerning the rules you posted above, I do agree it's reasonable. One thing I like about Orble is that there is open communication between the staff and the bloggers.
Comment by jon
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Just to clarify on the swearing issue. Some blogs are aimed at a younger audience and they still have the most popular posts section in the menu. I don't like complicating things but perhaps a solution would be the ability to classify a post title as "not family friendly" and then they would not be shown on the blogs who don't want swearing in the popular posts section of the menu. I dislike censorship as much as the next person but in some cases I think it is appropriate.
I'll do another post on Orble News to clarify the vote counting system for people as it was changed yesterday.
Comment by Luke
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Comment by Adrian
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It's reasonable to place restrictions on smoking, since smoking is a health hazard.
It's unreasonable (in my opinion) to place restrictions on mohawks or burqas on the basis that some people find them offensive or threatening.
Is swearing in a post title more like smoking, or more like mohawks and burqas?
Re the "think about the children" card... Is exposure of children to swearing a bad thing, or is it in fact a good thing, or is it neutral?
And is the distinction between post content and post title somewhat specious? -- Regardless of one's position on swearing, shouldn't one be for swearing in both, or against swearing in both? Pro-swearing considerations like linguistic appropriateness apply equally to post titles. And why are (purported
It might be interesting to know, incidentally, what programs like Net Nanny actually censor out.
Comment by Lilla
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we've used Net Nanny with both our young young ones and it filters everything above the rating you set it on. For example set it on 'G' and nothing above that gets through.. same for all the other levels... for our purposes it warked okay and kept our little 6-10 year olds out of harms way. We now use and 'MA' and 'R' setting for our 14 year old.
I don't think it has done any harm to our children to have them sheilded in such a manner...
Cheers
Lilla...
Comment by Adrian
Philosophy Blog
Comment by Lilla
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Im not sure which words belong in which categories, for example; 'sh!t may block up to PG and then be clear for M and upwards... I'm pretty sure the heavyweights would be blocked up to M, MA and beyond. Maybe someone could research it further...
Lilla...
Comment by Adrian
Philosophy Blog
The fact that Net Nanny bans such pages could be used in two sorts of arguments.
Pro-swearing in post titles: You could say that since Net Nanny and such software already does the job, Orble doesn't need to impinge on free speech to do it.
Anti-swearing in post titles: Particularly from a commercial point of view, you could say, you don't want Orble (or the homepage of Orble in particular, depending on how Net Nanny works) to be barred and that you don't want access to specific directed-at-younger-people blogs and posts to be unavailable to Net Nanny-equipped computers.
Comment by Brenton
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I like Jon's idea.
Comment by Lilla
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I agree in part, but what if you have an innocent title like : Goldilocks goes shopping with Daddy Bear and after you have opened it and read into the first paragraph Daddy Bear is up to no good with Goldilocks (with or without her consent), and there is a proliferation of cussing to go with the imaging... it's too late, the reader is affected, insulted vandalised no(?)
Lilla...
Comment by Luke
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Comment by Luke
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strictly from a professional standpoint of course.
Comment by Brenton
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However, I resist the idea of censorship in posts. I like to think of Orble as a free-speech location, and swearing is, for me, an integral part of the English language.