Creation Vs Evolution 4 Questions.
July 24th 2009 14:47
Yesterday. I posed some questions on the subject of evolution and creation to see if we couldn't get a debate going. That appears to have been an epic failure. However I do have folks that read this material so I will take a crack at answering the four questions from my perspective and we'll go from their.
1. Which story is more likely? 4.5 million years or the Bible's 6000 or so years since the beginning.
Answer. So which is it well from a scientific standpoint both are not provable. Think about it were supposed to believe that many many many years ago in a galaxy far away there was the big bang, then the earth cooled into a solid mass and after time and a little rain the chemicals formed into this primordial mass and from that came life which has evolved to this day. Now, if Christianity and the creation story is a myth and a religion what is evolution. Both to be fair are supported by faith, but only one requires that you pay taxes for it to be taught in public school, doesn't seem fair does it? In the United States they're laws that require textbooks to be accurate but evolution keeps being taught as if it were fact.
2. Should both be taught in school or just evolution?
Answer. Well I may have inadvertently answered that in the previous question. However, let me expand on it a bit. I think that science should be taught in school. I'm not against that, what I do have a problem with is the teaching of the evolution religion in school at our taxpayer expense. I think to be fair, and some schools have done this already is to teach both and allow the student to decide which is the best explanation.
3. What solid evidence supports either theory?
Answer. Well to say I'm a little bias on the Biblical perspective would be a huge understatement. However I believe that there is scientific evidence to support the biblical account of the flood and dinosaurs etc... For solid answers lets face it science like medicine is best guess. And when you draw conclusions they have to be based on some kind of factual information, especially if there going to be taught to our young children as fact. I believe Dinosaurs roamed with man on the earth. I believe there was a flood just as the bible states and geological evidence proves that. I believe that the world is around 6000 years old not 4.5 billion. If someone would like to discuss specific points then I'm happy to do that. Please ask away.
4. Is Evolution Theory a religion depending on faith rather then fact to support it?
Answer. Again I may have inadvertently answered this already however let me expand on my position. I think when you go from the realm of fact and move to faith based thinking it's a religion. To assume that we came from a a rock is absurd. Some I'm sure would say that to assume we came from a higher intelligence is absurd as well. My point is that in schools one is being taught to be a religion and the other as fact when both are based on faith. No solid evidence for evolution has ever been presented to solidify it as fact. Now let me clearly define that variations in species do occur, which is referred to by some as macro evolution. I believe a more there should be a more appropriate term but if this is your definition of evolution then I agree with you because that's science and can be observed.
So there's my take on it and I'm interested to know yours. Feel free to respond and add anything to the topic you can. For evolutionist I look forward to a great debate, However I think your evidence will be weak and easily explained away. Good luck
1. Which story is more likely? 4.5 million years or the Bible's 6000 or so years since the beginning.
Answer. So which is it well from a scientific standpoint both are not provable. Think about it were supposed to believe that many many many years ago in a galaxy far away there was the big bang, then the earth cooled into a solid mass and after time and a little rain the chemicals formed into this primordial mass and from that came life which has evolved to this day. Now, if Christianity and the creation story is a myth and a religion what is evolution. Both to be fair are supported by faith, but only one requires that you pay taxes for it to be taught in public school, doesn't seem fair does it? In the United States they're laws that require textbooks to be accurate but evolution keeps being taught as if it were fact.
2. Should both be taught in school or just evolution?
Answer. Well I may have inadvertently answered that in the previous question. However, let me expand on it a bit. I think that science should be taught in school. I'm not against that, what I do have a problem with is the teaching of the evolution religion in school at our taxpayer expense. I think to be fair, and some schools have done this already is to teach both and allow the student to decide which is the best explanation.
3. What solid evidence supports either theory?
Answer. Well to say I'm a little bias on the Biblical perspective would be a huge understatement. However I believe that there is scientific evidence to support the biblical account of the flood and dinosaurs etc... For solid answers lets face it science like medicine is best guess. And when you draw conclusions they have to be based on some kind of factual information, especially if there going to be taught to our young children as fact. I believe Dinosaurs roamed with man on the earth. I believe there was a flood just as the bible states and geological evidence proves that. I believe that the world is around 6000 years old not 4.5 billion. If someone would like to discuss specific points then I'm happy to do that. Please ask away.
4. Is Evolution Theory a religion depending on faith rather then fact to support it?
Answer. Again I may have inadvertently answered this already however let me expand on my position. I think when you go from the realm of fact and move to faith based thinking it's a religion. To assume that we came from a a rock is absurd. Some I'm sure would say that to assume we came from a higher intelligence is absurd as well. My point is that in schools one is being taught to be a religion and the other as fact when both are based on faith. No solid evidence for evolution has ever been presented to solidify it as fact. Now let me clearly define that variations in species do occur, which is referred to by some as macro evolution. I believe a more there should be a more appropriate term but if this is your definition of evolution then I agree with you because that's science and can be observed.
So there's my take on it and I'm interested to know yours. Feel free to respond and add anything to the topic you can. For evolutionist I look forward to a great debate, However I think your evidence will be weak and easily explained away. Good luck
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Comment by Morgan Bell
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i dont think thats true, there is overwhelming and consistent evidence proving the true age of the earth (within a certain margin of error) and a massive collection of fossils displaying where evolution has occurred . . . they find new evidence every day reinforcing that the earth is billions of years old and that life has evolved
the big bang theory and evolution are two different fields of study, the age of the earth and the universe is determined by experts in cosmology (a branch of astronomy), while evolution is a field of biology explaining the diversity of life
evolution is a fact, natural selection is the most popular theory of the mechanism which causes evolution to occur
i think Young Earth Creationism as described in the bible has no place in a science class, it may be appropriate a comparative religion class or perhaps social studies (examining beliefs of certain cultural groups etc) but it is not appropriate in science as it has already been disproved by scientists in the academic arena using the scientific method
i believe there probably was a man called Jesus who did charitable things and was crucified by the Romans for being a Jew, but through a process similar to chinese whispers the stories were greatly exaggerated over the ages and he became a folklore legend, much like robin hood
the actual times specified in the bible about the creation of the earth are incorrect, they were written at a time where humans had very limited scientific knowledge, they thought the earth was flat and the sun rotated around it, they were mistaken, they are also mistaken about the age of the earth
Comment by Alexander Cekala
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Your right the big bang theory is another lie taught in our schools that states everything came from nothing. And it is a separate myth that we discuss in more detail if you like. I'm all for science as I stated earlier however their needs to be a basis in fact. And thus far there's no conclusive proof that any animal of a particular kind has produced another of different kind.
I think as variations in a species there's proof birds make other birds, Wolves and dogs have common ancestry but a bird never became a dog.
Comment by Jim Stillman
To suggest that both the concept of evolution and natural selection and that of “young earth creationism” are both faith-based is, in my opinion, an error. The reliance on the Bible to establish geological data fails to answer a question I raised in earlier posts about the teaching of Biblical precepts in schools.
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Whose “Bible” should be the basis of creationism in contradiction to evolution? The many and varied cultures in the world, and those that did exist, all had theories of how we came to be. Are we to demand that only the Judeo-Christian-Muslim legends are valid?
I read a wise statement by a Pastor some months ago; I cannot, to my shame, recall the exact language or source. It pointed out that the Bible and the scientific evidence on the age of the world do not conflict, because each has a different purpose and focus.
Scientists answer the question of how we got here; religion answers the question of why we are here.
Comment by Alexander Cekala
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Rather than talk in generalities lets address the issue. I admit belief in God is faith based it's a personal choice that a person makes of his own free will, however as you stated in your post I don't think you should have to pay for it to be taught in your schools. Likewise the Evolution myth should be kept out of schools because its not science, its just that a myth.
Comment by Morgan Bell
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do you have a specific example of that happening?
can you provide a source or a link for that claim?
even if you deny the age of the fossil, how do you deny the transitional species that have been discovered showing where evolution has occurred?
scientists have observed evolution in animals with much shorter life cycles than our own (mostly insects), there is a huge amount of literature on speciation in Fruit Flies, House Flies, Apple Maggot Flies, Gall Former Flies, Worms, and Flour Beetles
The origin of new species by evolution has also been observed, both in the laboratory and in the wild.
See, for example, (Weinberg, J.R., V.R. Starczak, and D. Jorg, 1992, "Evidence for rapid speciation following a founder event in the laboratory." Evolution 46: 1214-1220).
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This hypothesis has been verified and corroborated so extensively that it is currently accepted as fact by the overwhelming majority of professional researchers in the biological and geological sciences.
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the age of the actual earth is not determined by Radiocarbon Dating (or Carbon 14 dating, as you call it), as Radiocarbon Dating can only by applied to objects which were once living and is limited to a scale of 50,000 years
The putative age of the Earth, about 4,500,000,000 years is based on the radiometrically measured age of meteorites
Lucy (Australopithecus Afarensis) was not dated using Radiocarbon Dating, she is estimated to to have lived 3.2 million years ago, the method they used to make that estimate is called Biostratigraphy
Stratigraphy is a branch of geology concerned with rock layers and layering, we can determine when igneous and sedimentary rock first formed and date fossil based on which layer of rock they were embedded in
Igneous rocks contain radioactive isotypes, such as Potassium or Uranium, which can determine when the magma cooled to form the volcanic rock
other methods of radiometic dating of rock include Uranium/Lead, Potassium/Argon, Argon/Argon, Rubidium/Strontium, and Thorium/Lead half-lives
Comment by Alexander Cekala
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“Age estimates on a given geological stratum by different radiometric methods are
often quite different (sometimes by hundreds of millions of years). There is no
absolutely reliable long-term radiological ‘clock’. The uncertainties inherent in
radiometric dating are disturbing to geologists and evolutionists.” (W.D. Stansfield
(Instructor of Biology, California Polytech State University), The Science of Evolution. New York:
Macmillan and Co., 1977, pp.82,84)
Living mollusc shells showed ages of 1,010 to 2,300 years, as though they had
been dead for that time! (M.L. Keith and G.M. Anderson (Department of Geochemistry and
Mineralogy, Pennsylvania State University), “Radiocarbon Dating: Fictitious Results With Mollusc
Shells”, Science, vol.141, 16 August, 1963, pp.634-635)
The “apparent radiocarbon age of a Lake Bonney seal known to have been
dead no more than a few weeks was determined to be 615± 100 years. A seal
freshly killed at McMurdo had an apparent age of 1,300 years.” (Wakefield Dort,
Jnr.,Department of Geology, The University of Kansas, “Mummified Seals of Southern Victoria
Land”, Antarctic Journal, Washington, vol.6, September-October, 1971, p.211)
And what do scientist say in reguards to these findings by other secular scientist. Lets see.
Here’s an admission by Richard L. Mauger, Associate Professor of Geology, East
Carolina:
“In general, dates in the ‘correct ball park’ are assumed to be correct and are
published, but those in disagreement with other data are seldom published nor are
discrepancies fully explained.” (Richard L. Mauger -Associate Professor of Geology, East Carolina
University, “K-Ar Ages of Biotites From Tuffs in Eocene Rocks of the Green River, Washakie, and Uinta
Basins, Utah, Wyoming, and Colorado”, Contributions to Geology, University of Wyoming, vol.15- 1, 1977,
p.37)
I think that covers all the dating myths. Now on to Lucy the missing link. Here again is what secular scientist say about this.
Richmond and Strait, "Evidence that Humans Evolved from Knuckle-Walking Ancestor," Nature 2000.
"Regardless of the status of Lucy's knee joint, new evidence has come forth that Lucy has the morphology of a knucklewalker."
The other problem here is that truly no bipedal bones have been recovered to support the upright walking of
Australopithecus. The majority of all the recovered fossils consist of isolated teeth, mandible fragments, skull fragments
(the top portion of the head) and a few fragments of arm bones. With this sketchy evidence they have concocted a
hugely fabricated story about Lucy and her "relatives".
Robert Boyd and Joan Silk (both professors of Anthropology), How Humans Evolved, 2000, pp. 331-334.
"Anatomical evidence indicated that A. afarensis was bipedal..."
"....some anthropologists are convinced by the anatomical evidence that A. afarensis was not a modern biped.”
In Short The general public is lead to believe that Lucy is a concrete example of life between humans and apes and that it proves we evolved and started walking upright 4 million years ago. What they aren't told is that if you took all of the bones
associated with Australopithecus you would not even fill up one casket. There simply isn’t enough evidence for true science to make this claim. It is all based on evidence that just isn’t there.
As for microevolution I believe you called it speciation I agree animals can produce variations in there own kind. And your correct to state this has been observed and documented, so this is in fact science, however it still doesn't show transition from one species to another. The Bible is very clear that animals will bring forth from their own kind. I think commonalities between the various creatures on earth speak more to a common designer then to blind chance. And I also agree with descent from a common ancestor. Anyone with a general knowledge of the book of Genesis can name that person and most likely his wife and first two children.
If I missed anything in your post I apologize I will try to address it in further post for sake of space. Again great questions keep em coming.
Comment by Morgan Bell
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(actually 11 PM Sunday night here in Sydney)
re: the Keith and Anderson (1963) mollusc example - discussed by Strahler (1987)
the anomaly is called "the reservoir effect" which only occurs in specific water conditions where "dead carbon" in present . . . scientists who evaluate age via Radiocarbon Dating take such factors into consideration when estimating the age of fossils
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it is the same case with the Lake Bonny seal, and both examples are regularly used by fraudsters like Kent Hovind to twist the truth
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carbon-dating works on half-lives so the older the specimen the wider the date range will be in years
in specimens under 10,000 years the margin of error is plus/minus 40 years . . . if an artifact is given a range of 30,000 to 32,000 it is a margin of error of plus/minus 1000 years, the equivalent of about 8%
i know it is a Creationist trait to try to make out there is some difference between "micro-evolution" and "macro-evolution", but the only difference is time scale and it is all just evolution
remember how Biologists define evolution:
a change in the gene pool of a population over time
Comment by Alexander Cekala
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1. A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form. See Synonyms at development.
2.
1. The process of developing.
2. Gradual development.
3. Biology
1. Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species.
2. The historical development of a related group of organisms; phylogeny.
4. A movement that is part of a set of ordered movements.
5. Mathematics The extraction of a root of a quantity.
the reason the full definition is important is that evolution is not just taught in biology class, It is taught in history and all the other sciences. I'm Glad you brought up Kent Hovind, simply because he is the easiest creationist to attack. For those that read this and wonder what I'm talking about, let me give you my take on the man.
Dr.Kent Hovind aka Dr dino is one of the leading debaters for Christian creationism. I will spare you the long description that he gives on a majority of his videos about what he believes and his educational background. Most of his work can be found on Google by doing a simple video search for his name. I happen to agree with his work. So then you say Alex whats the problem? Well Dr. Hovind was convicted of defrauding the Govt of the U.S. for some tax scheme regarding how he paid people in the ministry. He was sentenced to 10 years in prison and his wife I believe is serving a year as well for similar violations of the law. Currently his case is under appeal. My attitude about this is if he's guilty then he should be in jail but it doesn't negate his work which was a group effort between secular as well as religious scientist. To say that would be to also negate the teaching of any other college professor or school educator that has ever been arrested and convicted of a crime. I encourage anyone who wants a creationist view of the facts to review his work and make a judgment for yourself in addition I encourage anyone who would like to see his debates with professors and experts in their respective fields to google search for the videos.
I can state categorically that there's no empirical evidence to support the religion of evolution. It is a faith based belief no different from any other that ask you to accept certain things that can not be proven scientifically.
For those that are interested do the homework and research the topic for yourself not from a creationist point of view but from a truth point of view. See if it makes any sense. Thanks again Morgan for the great post.
Comment by Morgan Bell
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thanks for the civil discourse, i just have two final things to say, one: a statement about the nature of evolution as a scientific concept, and two: a list of fossil evidence confirming evolution has occurred creating new species
statement:
evolution is not a religion and it is not faith-based, it is a fact based on overwhelming and observable empirical evidence
some transitional fossils on record:
Amphibians to amniotes (first reptiles)
Proterogyrinus or early anthracosaurs (late Mississippian)
Limnoscelis, Tseajaia (late Carboniferous) Solenodonsaurus (mid-Pennsylvanian)
Hylonomus, Paleothyris
Early reptiles to turtles.
Captorhinus (early-mid Permain)
Scutosaurus and other pareiasaurs (mid-Permian)
Deltavjatia vjatkensis (Permian) (Lee, 1993)
Proganochelys (late Triassic)
Early reptiles to diapsids (crocodiles, lizards, snakes, etc).
Hylonomus, Paleothyris (early Penn.)
Petrolacosaurus, Araeoscelis (late Pennsylvanian)
Apsisaurus (early Permian)
Claudiosaurus (late Permian)
Planocephalosaurus (early Triassic)
Protorosaurus, Prolacerta (early Triassic)
Proterosuchus (early Triassic)
Hyperodapedon, Trilophosaurus (late Triassic)
Synapsid reptiles to mammals.
Paleothyris (early Pennsylvanian)
Protoclepsydrops haplous (early Pennsylvanian
Clepsydrops (early Pennsylvanian) --
Archaeothyris (early-mid Pennsylvanian) --
Varanops (early Permian) --
Haptodus (late Pennsylvanian) --
Dimetrodon, Sphenacodon or a similar sphenacodont (late Pennsylvanian to early Permian, 270 Ma)
Biarmosuchia (late Permian)
Procynosuchus (latest Permian)
Dvinia [also "Permocynodon"] (latest Permian)
Thrinaxodon (early Triassic)
Cynognathus (early Triassic, 240 Ma)
Diademodon (early Triassic, 240 Ma)
Probelesodon (mid-Triassic; South America)
Probainognathus (mid-Triassic, 239-235 Ma, Argentina)
Exaeretodon (mid-late Triassic, 239Ma, South America)
Oligokyphus, Kayentatherium (early Jurassic, 208 Ma)
Pachygenelus, Diarthrognathus (earliest Jurassic, 209 Ma)
Adelobasileus cromptoni (late Triassic; 225 Ma, west Texas)
Sinoconodon (early Jurassic, 208 Ma)
Kuehneotherium (early Jurassic, about 205 Ma)
Eozostrodon, Morganucodon, Haldanodon (early Jurassic, ~205 Ma)
Peramus (late Jurassic, about 155 Ma)
Endotherium (very latest Jurassic, 147 Ma)
Kielantherium and Aegialodon (early Cretaceous)
Steropodon galmani (early Cretaceous)
Vincelestes neuquenianus (early Cretaceous, 135 Ma)
Pariadens kirklandi (late Cretaceous, about 95 Ma)
Kennalestes and Asioryctes (late Cretaceous, Mongolia)
Cimolestes, Procerberus, Gypsonictops (very late Cretaceous)
Diapsid reptiles to birds.
Coelophysis (late Triassic)
Deinonychus, Oviraptor, and other advanced theropods (late Jurassic, Cretaceous)
Lisboasaurus estesi & other "troodontid dinosaur-birds" (mid-Jurassic)
Protoavis (Triassic, ~225 Ma)
Archeopteryx lithographica (Late Jurassic, 150 Ma)
Sinornis santensis ("Chinese bird", early Cretaceous, 138 Ma)
"Las Hoyas bird" or "Spanish bird" [not yet named; early Cretaceous, 131 Ma)
Ambiortus dementjevi (early Cretaceous, 125 Ma)
CLICKHERE for transitions among mammals (starting with primates), including numerous species-to-species transitions in carnivores and rodents
CLICKHERE for Cetaceans (whales, dolphins), Perissodactyls (horses, tapirs, rhinos), and Elephants
CLICKHERE for Artiodactyls (cloven-hoofed animals)
Comment by Alexander Cekala
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What fossil has ever been found with a date stamped on it?
What proof does a fossil provide other than an animal died?
How do you know for a fact the fossil had children?
The fiction that fossils must be formed over long periods of time has been disproved. They're fossils that have been found were fish have been fossilized while eating other fish, Mammoths frozen quickly where the stomach contents are able to be determined, something impossible if the mammoth was preserved over long periods of time etc...
If the evidence is solid why is it a theory and not a law like gravity or the laws of thermodynamics which contradict evolution?
We could go back and forth and I'm happy to do that but I think for the reader as I stated before it's important to do your homework and look at both fairly. I think in the end you see as much proof for an intelligent designer. Here's a great quote that might be of some intrest.
The world-renowned crusader for Darwinism and atheism, Prof. Richard Dawkins, states:
'We have seen that living things are too improbable and too beautifully “designed” to have come into existence by chance.'
Thus, even the most ardent atheist concedes that design is all around us. To a Christian, the design we see all around us is totally consistent with the Bible's explanation that God created all.
R. Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker (N.Y.: W.W. Norton & Co, 1987), p. 43.
Comment by Morgan Bell
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he is saying evolution is not purely chance, that there is a logical order in natural selection . . . the word "designed" is in inverted commas because the whole book is an argument against this supposed omnipotent "designer"
no, fossils do not come with date stamps, but our knowledge of rock formation and chemical reactions is so sophisticated we can now make estimates within a relatively small margin of error
the fossils are clear evidence of extinct species who link us and other animals to common ancestors, the purpose of dating a logging fossils is to help complete Phylogenetic Trees so we can see when, where and why mutations occurred
it does not happen as quickly as a crocodile giving birth to a duck, it happens very slowly over hundreds of thousands of years (for most large vertebrates) where each successive generation adapts gradually to their conditions
evolution is regarded as a fact by the scientific community, not a theory
Stephen J. Gould, " Evolution as Fact and Theory"; Discover, May 1981
Douglas J. Futuyma, Evolutionary Biology, 2nd ed., 1986, Sinauer Associates, p. 15
Comment by Alexander Cekala
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systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.
Please cite one reference where a person, doesn't need to be a scientist, has observed one kind of animal evolving into a different kind of animal. It's not there it requires faith. the faith that the best guess of scientist got it right.
Another question I'm sure you'll agree with. Just because Stephen J Gould makes a statement doesn't make it so. Otherwise all the textbooks would be changed to state the law of evolution. So why has the scientific community not had this done?
I guess it all comes down to belief. They're are some that are content to think there ancestry is a rock and some who accept the creation story, I think those who do a real study into Darwin and his theory will come to a clear conclusion that the man had some problems in his thinking process.
Here's another question one also might ask.
Is their a superior race? If so which one?
I believe we are all children of God just for clarification.
Here's what Darwin Said.
At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace, the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes ... will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilized state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as now between the Negro or Australian and the gorilla (Darwin 1887:156).
Now to be fair at the time many where racist in their thinking including many professed Christians, however it doesn't make it right.
Comment by Morgan Bell
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Speciation is the evolutionary process by which new biological species arise.
i have already mentioned above several observed instances of Speciation
it happens like branches on a tree, a group of one species is exposed to different environmental conditions and they mutate into a new species
the human and the chimpanzee have a relatively close shared ancestor, we have shared ancestors with species who have died out completely, but our life-spans and generations are much longer than insects so we need the fossils to confirm when the changes occurred
evolution as a fact is accepted by the entire scientific community and is referred to as a fact in all current academic literature
we know the true age of the earth, and we know evolution occurs, because of knowledge gained from observation and experimentation
Comment by Alexander Cekala
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I will agree that if the definition of evolution is the change within a species or variation of a species I'm all for it. The Bible clearly states that animals produce from there own kind. so at least in that we agree.
And I don't know about textbooks their, but as for the ones here, its still referred to a theory. Thank you so much for the discussion and lets leave it as we respectfully agree to disagree. Have a great day Morgan.