Arguments, Jokes, Censorship, and Deletion
July 5th 2009 17:10
image courtesy of suicider.deviantart.com
So, I was having a discussion in the (huge) comments section over on a popular post, and as usual for Orble things got a little out of hand. Mind you, I don't think I acted badly.
One user came on with a little dry sarcasm (and I am a total sucker for sarcasm), and the blog-operator jumped all over her, so to speak. I believe she said that a Monkey could provide a better contribution to the discussion, or something along those lines. Now, I am not here to debate the merits of sarcasm: it is obviously the highest form of wit [/endsarcasm]. I had noticed from a previous entry that the blog owner (Lets call her Ms. Dont) seemed to be a little hostile to people with alternative viewpoints, so I (innocently I thought) asked her if this was the case. Well, another blogger (let's call him Dame) seemed to also be taking offense as well.
Actually, I don't think the backstory is particularly important, just so you have an idea of where I'm coming from.
Anyway, the point is... I was having a meaningful discussion on the difference between cults and religions before all the flaming started. After I was accused of sending threatening pm's, all of my comments were deleted.
I have this question: If someone has stepped out of line, would you delete all of their comments? Even the ones that you agree are civil and reasonable, just because you think they stepped out of line a little further down the track?
Secondly, I was accused by Mr. Dame of badgering Ms. Dont. I think the term used was a 'pecking party'. Question 2: What the hell is a pecking party? It sounds like a party involving a lot of chicks... which is a good thing, right?
Thirdly: How the f*ck do you let people know you are joking on the internet? I have tried ending sarcastic comments with [/sarcasm], I have tried ending them with smiling emoticons... and yet, some people still take them seriously.
Fourth: back to the badgering thing. I was under the impression that that was how a discussion worked. Hear me out: Ms Dont made comments. I responded. She responded. I responded. That's how a discussion works, right? And yet apparently I was harassing her every time she said something... isn't that how you discuss things? With a back and forth exchange of words?
Fifth and final question: If somebody makes an accusation against someone else, does the accusee have the right to view all of the evidence held by the accuser? As I mentioned, I was accused of sending a threatening pm to Ms. Dont. Following that, I left a comment and sent a pm asking for a copy of the alleged message. However, I have so far been ignored, and the comment containing the request was deleted (as was a comment containing a copy of my sent messages, with none to Ms. Dont). Do you think I have a right to see this message that I was accused of writing, even if the accusations have since been deleted? I have already contacted Jon, so I have a feeling I'll get to see the message sooner or later, but I thought it was common courtesy in these situations to throw all of your cards on the table? Am I wrong?
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Comment by Nevar
Is Why
I'll use this analogy: some folks are so bent on being contentious that they can view a boy scout or other good samaritan helping an elderly or disabled person to cross a busy street and interpret it as an assault.
As happens on occasion, we write what we perceive as a crystal clear piece and discover that others read into it things that aren't there. Perhaps because they're already agitated and didn't fully comprehend what was actually said vs what they thought was being communicated due in part to emotional upheaval.
It's a tough call. To succeed as a blogger you need to bone up: find a wishbone, develop a backbone and keep your funny bone.
Comment by signals
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Then they arrive with their 'gangs' and badger you that you are wrong because you don't accept their ideology and thoughts.
I say let the ignorant eat their own puke...even if it's me or you. They 'peck' you is reasonable, you 'peck'ing them is harassment or something.
I tend to just sit back and laugh at all this nonsense. I put my two cents and move on. Arguing with the ignorant(be it you or me...and by YOU I mean Everybody!) is a waste of precious time you won't get back.
From what I've observed, I see an intolerable hatred towards Christians, Republicans, Heterosexuals, Unbelievers of man-made global warming, UNITED STATES, etc.
Does it stop me? What do you think?
I hope I answered your questions somewhat, otherwise report me to the gods of Orble and cry me a river
Comment by Morgan Bell
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live and learn hey, some people cannot be reasoned with, they turn everything into a pissing match of turf war rather than just politely answering the question . . . these people are easy to recognise as they are the ones asking questions and then barking at people who answer, but are incapable of answering anything themselves . . . they like to dictate who is allowed to speak to whom
stick to the blogs of sane people
ive seen you getting shouted down a few times lately for no real reason, and its always the same set of people doing the shouting, making the false accusations, and fabricating the rumours
drama queens, insane drama queens
Comment by RubySoho
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Comment by Damo
Who is about?
Don't bother answering
Mr DameDamo has left the building.I also don't like cry baby dummy spits.
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
And since we arent allowed to mention names, me and a certain blogger used to go at it, all day, every day. We followed each other to other blogs, and fought there, messing up their pages. We made our own blogs hell to be on, because all we did was scream at each other. And now we are accused of being up each others butts, just because we got over it and developed a friendship. If his original blog was still here, and you could see the things we said to each other, you'd agree that anythings possible.
And thats why I dont delete comments. Because it proves kiss-and-make-up is possible right after a barrage of personal attacks. On an internet persona that isnt even real. Whoa, Im going off into philosophy now!
But yeah. Ive always thought it unfair that we dont 'show our working' here on orble. You get all this crap about accusations, but no evidence.
Kleos end of thought on all internet wars? If you get that worked up about a bloody computer screen, you have no life.
Comment by RubySoho
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Some time back you asked me why I didn't like him. I think you have your answer.
Comment by Morgan Bell
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Comment by samaritan
Fringe Faith
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I think one of the problems is that we all have opinions (about other people and what they're saying). Now in a real life conversation, I think it's far easier to change those opinions. Because you can see where a person is coming from and the general tone of what they're saying. But on the internet, when all you have is the words, how you think about something influences how you read it. To a huge extent. If someone has annoyed me, I'm likely to read a certain tone into their next comment to me, which may or may not be there.
I don't know how you stop that by the way. Maybe it's just a matter of recognising that how we think something when we write it is not the way that everyone will read it.
As for deleting comments, I think everybody should be able to make their own minds up about whether to delete or leave comments. I take the leave comments approach. I've only ever deleted one, and that was because I kind of freaked out a bit because I'd never been attacked in that way before. I have never reported a comment either. But if people do want to delete comments, they should be allowed to do that as well.
I don't really know the answer to the accusation thing. Whether you should be allowed to see the evidence or not. I'll have to think about that one.
I really don't want to start a whole other argument here. But I do want to say, while I am here, that I do not agree with the comments that have been made about Damo. I also think that many of us are a little guilty of the things that have been said about him.
And so now I would like to do something completely different for Orble. Instead of criticising other people, I'm going to criticise myself. I have been guilty or writing comments out of anger, comments that criticised and made fun of other people. I myself have acted with a schoolyard mentality. And I regret that.
I'm not going to throw stones at others here, because I know I'm not perfect myself. And none of us are.
Samaritan
Comment by Someone
Evil Pleasures
Random Musings on Life, Love and Everything
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I was so tired last night, I don't even remember writing this!
Reading it and the responses should be fun
Comment by Someone
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You make a good point. I also like your boy scout analogy. I try to keep an open mind, and judge what anyone writes based on it's merits... but I know that I can only judge it based on my own perspectives and prejudices... that is why I am usually so determined to get others' points of view on the subject.
Signals,
Apparently I am part of the lynch mob now, who knew? I used to have great discussions about theology with David and Nevar before David got banned (which I am still unhappy about). Because I view myself as an agnostic, it was enlightening to get the perspectives of a bible scholar. I usually like to think I am one of the first to stand up and speak out if someone makes a personal attack... which is what got me into this mess in the first place.
Morgan,
I have tried reasoning with a few Orblers. Some are open to it, some are not. Ms Dont and Mr Dame obviously do not want to be reasoned with, and to be fair I should have realized this and stopped trying a long time ago.
Ruby,
I like to give people the benefit of the doubt... and I like to assume that if they are attacking others, it is for a good reason that I have no knowledge about... so yeah, basically people show their true colours when they start making personal attacks.
And yes, I think I see where you were coming from now
Kleonopatra:
I don't think I've ever deleted a comment... I might have actually, but only ones that were direct personal attacks against other Orblers on my blogs, which I really won't stand for. And it actually is possible to show your workings, but the last time I tried asking people to... well, it didn't go so well.
Samaritan,
I am the first one to admit that some of the time, I am at fault. I used to get angry about it when people pointed it out... I like to think I have a more open mind now, and the ability to reflect on myself and see when I am at fault and when I am not. I understand why you do not want to offend Damo: I didn't understand why others didn't like him.. In fact, I posed the question and opened a whole barrel of worms a while back, You can read about it here if you like.. And I haven't disliked him until recently, because now all that happens when we talk to each other is he accuses me of being a liar and a coward and I defend myself, and I'm a little tired of doing so.
As for the accusation... still waiting to hear back from Jon. Do you guys know if sending him a private message is enough or should I be emailing him or other people as well?
Comment by hazius
home with hazius
The thing that made me decide that was when a person advised the blog owner to delete 'certain' posts.
Straight up, that said it all for me.
(You're welcome to post here but only if you agree with me)
Nup - I agree with you - posts (unless they're insulting another person) should not be deleted.
Comment by Morgan Bell
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the best way to contact Jon is through the complaints or support emails
he has stated before if you would like to follow-up on a [Report] or leave additional comments about how you would like the matter resolved or why it was offensive, email support@orble.com
this is also the email to use of you suspect a banned blogger has returned to the network under a different user profile
there is also the general complaints@orble.com
Comment by Someone
Evil Pleasures
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I was prepared to take Ms. Dont at face value and assume she wouldn't make a false accusation... however, my lack of response from her and her continually deleting my comments asking for a follow up on the issue mean that the longer this goes on the more I am suspecting the former.
The thing is, I don't think this is really a [report] issue, and it isn't really a complaint... rather, I would just like the matter investigated and resolved... I'm sure Jon is just busy doing whatever it is Orble gods do, so I'll give him some more time before I start harassing him
Comment by Morgan Bell
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if you think someone, or several people, are fabricating details to bully you, forward the email notifications of the comments where you were accused (even if they were deleted Jon can track them by the notification) to Support
i was talking to Jon earlier, hes around today, use the Support email for the most prompt response . . . and clearly mark the subject line of your email as urgent and a short description of the problem so he can identify it as a priority
Comment by Someone
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I'm just gonna drop it unless anything else eventuates... a certain someone has already embarrassed themselves enough.
Comment by Deanna B
I read so many blogs and such that I can't remember the details of every one...so correct me if I'm wrong.
Didn't a fellow blogger write about the points(or something) that each of you gets whenever someone comments on your blog?
Writing something controversial,or engaging a commenter in battle sounds like a great way to do that. I'm just sayin'.
One would think that adults could engage in conversation with differing viewpoints,without anyone getting their knickers in a twist. Perhaps that is in a perfect world. I maintain that everyone is entitled to their opinion [as long as it coincides with mine] and I haven't met an Orble blogger/writer yet,that I don't like!
BTW,pulling your leg is one thing...but when they get your goat,it's gone too far. 8)
Comment by Someone
Evil Pleasures
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I agree, writing about controversial posts is a great way to attract readers and points and whatnot. I have no problem with that. I also have no problem with any writer's opinions, so long as they are willing to discuss them. One of my favourite people to discuss things with on Orble is S.L. Bradish over at The Political Brief, simply because even though her viewpoints are almost the polar opposite of mine, she is willing to discuss and debate her ideals and values with me in a civilized and adult manner.
What annoys me is when writers get insulted when you (innocently) question their viewpoints and begin making personal attacks... even (apparently) going so far as to make false accusations to tarnish your reputation, for no reason other than to avoid answering your questions. Going back to Ms. Bradish, she is (obviously) not an Obama supporter, but is willing to discuss her qualms with his policies, and even concede when you make good points, without getting angry and calling you a liberal scumbag or something along those lines, which I highly respect.
Comment by hazius
home with hazius
As soon as you logically question what they say, instead of being 'interested' by the intellectual challenge, they come out shooting - or with a patronising comment, "Yes, I respect your views, but I'm afraid I'm right."
(laugh) - a self-qualifying truth always cracks me up.
A good analogy of the dichotomy is a good swimmer staying calm in the water when the waves start rising, opposed to a bad swimmer who starts flailing.
I think 'they' know their beliefs are coming unstuck - and yet they also "know" how good their beliefs are - as they have been studying and propping themselves up with them for so many years.
So many years in fact, that they now CAN'T stop believing. So they are always feeling a frustration - and an anger that people question it and 'don't really get it.!!" - which of course, is really the little voice of doubt that keeps niggling in their own head.
Again, that's an antiquated mind-set - derived more from the masters of old.
(Sorry about the venting of the spleen, but that's one of teh things blogs are for, right?)
Comment by Someone
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It's just a shame that it takes an episode like this for us to realize who's worth debating with and who isn't... to steal you analogy, everyone is a good swimmer in calm water, and it takes a bit of a rough current to show who's really worth their salt.
Comment by hazius
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classic!
Comment by signals
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That's what makes a blog a blog. We are able to be controversial. But think about it...Who are you controversial to? The ones who disagree with you, of course. Remember that sometimes the controversial thinkers are the 'majority' and therefore have the loudest foghorns...otherwise known as mouths or in this case words-on-a-screen.
People forget that nobody agrees with anybody 100% of the time. I may agree with your thoughts of rocket science but totally disagree over your religious views.
I am an individual. My thoughts may vary greatly from yours. Live with it
Comment by Someone
Evil Pleasures
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However, it's when these people cannot extend the same open-mindedness and begin attacking you personally for your opinions that things start to get a bit nasty.
Comment by Morgan Bell
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